Apple v. Samsung v. Apple

According to Alyssa Milano on Twitter, it's almost over. The jury has reached some sort of verdict in Apple's federal patent infringement suit against Samsung, and presumably in Samsung's countersuit against Apple. 

Only, it's not over. Whoever loses will appeal. We'll update you with more from Alyssa Milano just as soon as we have it.

Update: We're still waiting to hear more from Alyssa Milano, but you've seen the news. A lot of Samsung's phones were found to have infringed on some of Apple's patents. A lot of Samsung's phones were found to violate trade dress, essentially meaning they ripped off the iPhone.

And Samsung has been ordered to pay Apple $1.05 billion. 

Samsung, which had countersued Apple, didn't win a damn thing. Nothing. Zero.

We'll talk some more on this over the weekend. It's been a bad day for Samsung, to be sure. But this is far from over. Appeals will happen. The patent debate will continue.


Reader comments

Apple v. Samsung v. Apple: It's almost over, only, not really


If its an Apple clean sweep then I don't want to live on this planet any more.. Thankfully being British means im not really on the same planet as the US.

If Apple wins this suit, I will seriously be depressed this weekend knowing our Justice system can be taken advantage of by a despicable company so easily.

Despicable? Google put code on its site to track its users against there will, samsung isn't an american company, both companies have copied Apple left and right. Google is buying up companies like Motorola to get patents because they have none to defend what they stole, Microsoft and now Samsung have stores that are almost exact copies, etc. etc. etc.

Justice has been served......these companies need to stop copying!

Copying hurts the consumer, they keep claiming Apple is the bad guy because they are stopping innovation, but innovation isn't copying its creating your own original thing and selling it and so far everyone is copying Apple. Microsoft for once isn't with Windows phone 7 and Windows 8. They are finally doing there own thing! Google and its peon's need to do the same!

Well said. I think it is a good day for tech. Maybe these guys can forget about how Apple does things, and find an even better way to do it. Now that is where we will have choice.

LOL... Copying a store that sells your products? Really? That is hilarious. Kind of like how a Nike Store sells Nikes and a Samsonite store sells Samsonite. So, technically, isn't apple "copying"?

Can you enlighten us how "copying hurts the consumer"? I'd wager that monopoly over a certain technology hurts the consumer...

Because no innovation is happening its that simple. If you have companies working against one another and creating new things and trying to get one over the other then innovation happens and new products and ideas come to market.

When you have companies simply copying another its just that and its a constant slow process for something new to come along. Everyone is doing the current thing.

So, did the guy that invented the wheel sue everyone thereafter that created a better, more useable wheel? Did Ford sue everyother car manufacturer that came out with assembly lines after they did? No! That is where innovation is important. Samsung makes DIFFERENT products than Apple....and yes, Apple is scared of the competition in the industry. Is it fair that an iTunes (iPhone) user needs to give Apple their credit card information to get an app that is "free"?? This can go on and on with no resolve. Apple should be happy where they are in the industry and leave all this petty crap for the birds. This kind of innovative "stealing" has been happening forever. Also, take a look outside and see how many different car companies are making cars that look (and feel) just like other companies cars. Are they bringing out lawsuits like Apple? No - they create a better product that the consumer wants and then create revenue. The company is happy and, more importantly, so are you and me.

Are you kidding me man. Apple has a grid of icons on its homescreen ,which phones have had since before the iPhone. D android has an app drawer and a home screen that you can customize with widgets. Android has had a notification drawer, folders, voice search, and copy and paste way before than the iPhone. Does the mean apple ccopied Google? No. Apple improved in the features of android and vice versa. Innovation these days is building uPon existing concepts.

So Windows phone 7 and 8 do not have multituch, doubletap zoom, or icons in a grid? All things that existed in technology before the iPhone, yet Apple gets to have the patents on them and sue over it. There is only so much you can do with a touch screen rectangle to keep it functional with how our bodies react with it. This would be like Ford patenting and not allowing anyone else to have the break petal on the left and the gas petal on the right. Things are going to evolve in a certain way because that is just the way it needs to work in order for it to be fully functional with the human body. Just because Apple wants to cry about companies "copying" their products that basically borrowed all of it's functionality from others in no way makes this a good thing for the consumer. Now we will all have less functional products because of this stupid lawsuit.

Who ever created multitouch, etc why didn't they patent it? Their own fault.

Ford didn't create the first car they are famous for having the first assembly line, which started the Model T I believe.

Borrowed = steal.

Look at the phones before the iPhone and then after. Look at tablets before and after. After spending millions maybe billions and years to create a product and to have others copy the product in 6 months wouldn't you be made as well for someone copying your product? Yes you would.

Apple didn't spend years and billions of dollars to make the iPad a rectangle with a rim around it. It's a logical design decision. Yet they want to sue anyone who makes a tablet that is rectangular with a rim around it. That's asinine. The time and money went into the internals and the software. Android uses different hardware and software.

All cars look pretty much the same because they basically evolved to the most logical design, and you don't see car companies suing each other over this. Same with televisions, telephones, toasters, frying pans, and on and on.

This is stupid. I'll say this: Apple is setting itself up for a big fall. Becoming the most hated company is not something they should aspire to. Eventually this will backfire on them in a big way.

Funny about that whole Google tracking its users thing. That info was in the EULA when you sign up for a Google service or download and install a copy of Google Chrome. You can't fate anything Google did on people who were to lazy to read the terms of the applications/services they decided to use.

It's not like it matters anyway, their intent isn't malicious, it's not harmful, it was and is simply for the betterment of their products and services. To make things good for the end consumer. Samsung hadn't stolen anything, if they had, would Apple's lawyers have had to falsify information and images overseas in other lawsuits relating to scale? Or better yet, I love the one where they open the app drawer instead of leaving it on the screen that comes up when you turn on the device in an iPhone vs Galaxy situation.

Copying hurts no one particularly, that's how we've continued to have new and better products that were simply renovations of ideas that already existed but implemented them better/differently/more efficiently. I feel really sorry for you if you felt bad for Apple in this case until they won. They've had nothing taken from them, they've had no harm done to them. They were simply the victims of what happens when you're on top. Now that they've got a monopolistic oligarchy of tech patents, they could realistically sue anyone they wanted. Every phone OEM has created the rounded rectangular touchscreen device, HTC, Moto, Samsung, Kyocera, etc.. The ONLY reason they went after Samsung is because they felt threatened. Last I heard Samsung was selling more phones than Apple, why? Because they make a ground breaking device that people want, whether that was the original Galaxy S with it's 4" AMOLED screen, or the Galaxy S III with it's giant AMOLED screen, NFC, 4GLTE. Even things like the Galaxy Note are things Apple doesn't, and won't offer, and there is obviously a large following of people out there that want these devices.

Head back on over to your bridge troll, we have no need for you here.

I'm talking about the code that was put on Googles page that still tracked users using Safari even though they opted out. They got fined for it so the EULA didn't cover that. It was sneaky code wrongly embedded and taking advantage of its own customers. What else do they or will they do to try and get one up on its customers?? The tracking was being used against customers for Google's real customers the advertisers.

I'm talking about the code that was put on Googles page that still tracked users using Safari even though they opted out. They got fined for it so the EULA didn't cover that. It was sneaky code wrongly embedded and taking advantage of its own customers. What else do they or will they do to try and get one up on its customers??

Copying does hurt, all these companies are running around in a circle doing the same thing. If they want innovation, do R&D and come out with new exciting things not copy and keep us customers in a loop by copying one company.

Samsung is selling more phones because they are flooding the market with junk phones that are free to quality phones up to what $200-$300.

I'm against NFC, I think its a security issue and personally any phone over 4.3" is too big. But choice is fine, but can be done without copying Apple look and feel. 4G wasn't ready until the latest chipset come out this year. Sure the next iPhone will support that.

The Galaxy Note is an interesting idea. Had that in the 90s, just works better today and I don't think Apple included that in its lawsuit. I could be wrong but i dont' think it was included.

You can't copy features your competitor doesn't have. Samsung didn't copy drag and drop of media, widgets, true multitasking, removable battery and micro SD support, setting 3rd party apps as default, in fact I could go on and on. The only thing you can claim they copied is the look and feel and if you ask me they really aren't even identical. This whole argument that Samsung copied the 'innovative technology' of Apple is bogus. It just simply isn't true. The appeals process will continue for several years after today and I'm not so sure Apple will ever see a dime of this 'award'

Yea I guess the jury who sat through 4 weeks of testimony and evidence from both sides were wrong but you are right.

"The only thing you can claim they copied is the look and feel..." it's the look and feel of Apple products that have helped them dominate just about every field they've entered, and it's exactly why Samsung copied them.

No, it's the simplicity of their products to the point that anyone, of any age, can use them. It's the added sense of security (whether true or false) of a locked down garden of control. And, above all else, it is the staggering amount of marketing that has come out of Apple that makes their iPhones, tablets and other products near instant-hits - the fact that you can take any average joe consumer, ask them why they want the iPhone, and their answer simply be "because it's an iPhone!" attests to that. It's the marketing.

It is definitely nothing to do with "the look and feel" of an iPhone. Apple was devilishly smart - they saw a loophole in the current U.S law and patent system, and decided to strike when they realized their competitors were not only catching up at a blazingly fast speed, but even beginning to surpass them. Rather than create a better product, they wanted to "pull a fast one" on Android's best-selling manufacturer - Samsung. People all over the internet are simply scoffing at Apple's silly words at the end - that "values have won". Even some Apple fans have figured out what Apple has done and is currently doing to the tech industry, and are not happy about it. Although some courts in other countries didn't fall for it, our U.S court did, and it's a damn shame.

Apple is simply as powerful as its marketing - which, unfortunately, is a powerful beast. All of this evil is like cheating, lying, twisting words...taking advantage of others. It's just business, of course - but it sure does reek. Apple should be seriously ashamed of themselves for all of this.

" it's the look and feel of Apple products that have helped them dominate just about every field they've entered..."

I guess that's why Apple dominates the personal computer field. Oh, wait...

Apple has been using ideas invented by others since at least the Mac in 1984.

This goes well beyond which phones we prefer. Asian countries have been outright copying American innovations with impunity for decades, especially the Chinese. Companies like Apple spend millions and years of work to bring their products to market, then these foreign companies steal their work. And if you followed the case, you'll know that internal Samsung documents admit that they must copy the iPhone or lose customers to Apple. AND, Apple gave them a chance to pay for what they stole before taking them to court and Samsung just thumbed their nose at them.There was a Crime Inc episode on CNBC this week that looks at this problem and how it costs us money and jobs. Maybe now with this verdict, these foreign companies will think twice about stealing our products .

BTW, I own many Apple products but I happen to have an Android phone and love it . Again it's not about the iPhone vs Android, it's about innovating vs stealing.

That loyal American company called Apple doesn't manufacture its products in the US. Instead, they do it in China, where workers are virtual slaves. They could make them in the US, employ American workers, and sell them at the same price, but they wouldn't make an astronomical profit on each unit by exploiting workers, and their top execs might only be worth hundreds of millions of dollars, instead of billions. It is an act of pure greed.

copied Apple? That's the biggest load of horse shit I've ever heard. Apple didn't invent the rectangle, Nor did they create the notification bar, nor did they invent the touchscreen. Apple has copied many companies. What really hurts the consumer is having less choices. That's what Apple is trying to do. They feel threaten, Since Samsung is taking over. That's why they're suing.

The consumer argument was crux of Samsung's lame case. They basically said that it was okay to copy and steal from Apple if that's what the consumer wanted. The verdict speaks for itself.

Bull, If anyone was copied it was Google. Apple copied smart phone technology from Google to begin with. That should of been Samsung's defense to begin with. And Samsung was stating that apple iphones were the status quo of phone designs at the time. And there is a list of norms that phones need to have to be popular for the consumers.

I've got bad news for you, @cashxx: Apple didn't invent most of the stuff they're doing in iOS. Yes, they did make some of it simpler or more friendly, but it can be argued that taking a concept and altering slightly and using it your own way is exactly what they're suing Samsung for doing.

We're not talking about making fake iPhones here, like the crap that goes on over in China. That kind of thing definitely isn't good for the consumer, but suing Samsung because their phones have "rounded corners" is like one car manufacturer suing another because their car has four wheels.

We're talking about minor design elements, here. Samsung thinking that the bounce overscroll effect was cool and implementing something similar to iOS cost Apple hundreds of thousands of dollars? Really? This is a case of Apple being a petulant child and trying to sue all the other kids on the playground because they're not winning the game.

And if you really want to argue the whole "who's copying whom" thing, check out the new notification menu on iOS5 versus what Android has had in place since day 1. Sorry to have to break it to you, but the credibility of your augment just went out the window.

Its time to go all Tyler Durden on Apple, remember fight club. Getting started making soap, rather the byproduct of it.

Subtle visual effects are the only things the press is mentioning. None of which seem critical, and all of which can be attacked by invalidating the patents with prior art now that they have been identified.

I still haven't seen any critical issue confirmed.

More importantly, why is AC relying on Alyssa Milano for news about this?

Or maybe it's a joke that went over my head.

I was thinking the same thing. Unless Alyssa Milano is on the jury then she is just another flapping head. Update: Alyssa Milano has nothing to do with this case..

Was wondering....I read the jury asked to stay an extra hour tonight. I bet it will be a mixed verdict or if someone loses big then we go to appeal. Hopefully the judge denies and thats the end.

Jury decisions are on they saying all devices listed infrige some patents, some partly, watch that Verge live blog thye listing them all

I'm sorry, icebike. Let me clarify; it was more just a figure of speech than Samsung actually being 'killed' in court. You're kind of a troll, by the way. That's so message board 1999 to 2003. Been around these boards for 2+ years and you've got too be the most ridiculous member here. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, you live for this stuff.

Oh grow up, you whiny baby.

Look at what individual patent points went for apple. Nothing but minor UI visual effects.

Go read the Verge:

It lists all the points one by one. All the UI violations are easily remedied with a work around. Some of the trade dress may stand.

Any that matter are likely to be overturned on appeal. They haven't even gotten to the VALIDITY phase of the trial, where some of those same patents may be found by the same jury to be invalid.

This is round one, and you are already shoveling Samsung into the grave, and shouting insults at anyone who disagrees with you. Go do some research once in a while and at least pretend you know what you are talking about.

Shhhh icebike it's okay, you're lashing out right now because we unjustly lost in court. We are all upset about this. It is indeed a sad day for the technology industry; if Apple's marketing can achieve this, we have to wonder what they'll achieve next. And that thought scares you, I know. It scares me too. *hugs him gently*. Get some sleep and we'll all talk some more in the morning, okay? :-)

I don't know how the trade dress will stand. The offenders aren't devices that are being sold on the top anymore, so pull them, see who cares?

Why would anyone want a GS II when they can now purchase a GS III?

Yes, "ad hominem", a.k.a. "personal attack". Taking your time to comment on a specific poster's behavior without being provoked, in this particular case. It's a form of trolling.

I guess you don't know our good buddy over there named icebike. Without labeling him something negative, let's just say he's an extremely intelligent individual who tends to be really rude to others online here - ironically enough, he's the epitome of what you just mistakenly described dmcincubus as being. Whether it be on the main pages here at AC, or deep in the forums, icebike has a long reputation to uphold in trying to get people's goats. It's the type of behavior that makes it difficult for moderators of websites to really ban him, because technically he isn't doing anything terribly against the rules, while at the same time managing to be completely rude, insensitive and unapologetic to everyone he chooses to initiate conversation with. A couple times in the forums I thought he had finally slipped up (a "n00b" asked a relatively simple and naive question, icebike was the first to respond with his usual aggressiveness but had gone a little too far), but unfortunately the mods either didn't see or didn't agree. Either way, really the only solution to his behavior is to ignore him, of course, but new users will continue to have to figure him out and become frustrated until either they finally do, or move on from AC.

So, while his comment this time seems like it's completely innocent, playful sarcasm - as you can see from his second reply, it is not the case, and never is, with him. He lives for you - anyone, really - to respond to him. That is why he needs more hugs, guys. Everyone, if you ever see icebike around, please give him a simple hug! Hold onto that man for as long as you can!

Well first of all it's just US and they Samsung not only doing Smartphones, so they defiantly won't be killed and they can always find way around it.

This is the precedent. Apple will go after any android phone maker that threatens Apple's sales. My bet is that once Apple is done with Samsung (mobile), they'll start work on Asus.

This is not a good day for patents.

Actually it is a very good day for the patent system. This will certainly be appealed for years but as for Apple's next target, it will probably be another manufacturer of US market smartphones. At least in the US, Asus is mostly in the computer and tablet business - Apple did not win on tablet claims. FWIW, I have no doubt that they will continue to sue manufacturers until they drive a wedge between those manufacturers and Google/Android, or until they draw Google out and force a settlement on the underlying issues.

Im glad Samsung will appeal and hopefully get a better judge at that. This case was a sham from the get go

You guys are ridiculous....Apple deserves to go after anyone that copies their shit. Period. Samsung tried and lost! The appeal won't work down the road.

Another 1.05 billion to add to their 76+ Billion....KA-CHING!

Do you use android phones? Why hate on something that brought you your awesome android phone. I know this statement hurts the ego of some android users but as they say the truth hurts.

Actually, if you bother to do any research on your statements, you will discover that Android existed back in 2005. Before the iPhone was released. That's not to say that popular elements from iOS haven't influenced Android. Certainly, this is the norm in the software field, and has worked both ways. Apple has adopted a few features (multi-tasking, notification center) in an attempt to compete with Android.

But to say that Android *only* exists because iOS exists if factually untrue.

"copies their shit"

What happens if, as you so eloquently put it, if Apple is found to be copying someone else's "shit"? Because I could easily provide you with a number of examples of things in iOS that are "copied" from previous operating systems, mobile and otherwise. It would be one thing if a company made an iOS clone and stuck it on a phone, but that's not the case here. Even Apple isn't claiming that that is the case. They are complaining about minor design elements, even though they've done the exactly same thing with iOS. The biggest and most obvious example is the new iOS5 notification drop down. That's a direct rip-off of Android.

I don't really care about that, but I do find it hilarious that Apple has the gall to run around screaming about how Google or Samsung copied their tiny design elements (especially when they didn't actually invent half of them) while they're doing to exact same thing.

At this point, Apple is looking more an more like the petulant child that simply wants to "take their ball and go home" because they're not winning on the playground anymore.

This case will likely be in appeals for a while. If there's any real justice here, some of these bogus patents will be invalidated. The only people who are really "losing" here are us consumers. The massive cost of all this garbage ends up coming back down to us. Not to mention the removal of valid competition in the market. Android doesn't "copy" iOS. It works *very* differently, even if certain tiny design elements look similar.

Most innovation takes something that already exists and builds on it. In fact, that's exactly what Apple did with the first iPhone. The real problem Apple has, is that was the last time they innovated anything.

And don't try and argue the Siri thing. It just demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about. First off, Apple didn't invent that either. They bought the company that was developing Siri. Second, voice activation technology has been around a long time. Even before the iPhone or Android. But Android had the same features more than a year before Apple introduced Siri, even if they didn't try and give it a snarky personality. And there were numerous apps for Apple and Android and Windows Mobile and Blackberry that tried to do pretty much the same thing.

Apple doesn't innovate, they market. They try to convince the masses that they *need* an iPhone, not because it's the best, but just because they *need* one. The iPhone is a great device, for what it is: a simple, yet powerful mobile computing device. But that doesn't make it the *best* device. Nor are the concepts used to build it completely original.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I applaud Apple for seeing a way to elegantly bring all those powerful features together in an intuitive way. But suing everyone else who thinks they could do it better (and is being backed up by market share) is not how you run a successful business.

Apple is in serious danger of a repeat of the PC/Mac wars. The latest market data shows Android beating iOS 53% to 27%. Consumers have shown that they're willing to deal with the learning curve for features. It's time Apple listened and quit trying to *tell* their consumers how they should use their devices and to realize that they can't "beat" their competition into submission with fraudulent patent claims. All they're doing is wasting time and money and giving themselves a bad image.

Yeah no doubt. Im sorry but Ive seen or used a lot of those phones. They look nothing like the Iphone. It would take a blind person not to be able to readily distinguish the differences. Last I heard "copy" means duplicate. To do that they would have to be the same and they just arent.

And it looks like its a NO against Apple across the board on the Iphone. A sad day indeed. What a joke.

Sad day for the mobile industry.. Apple has basically been given carte blanche by todays ruling from people who had 100+ pages of documents to review and did it less than 3 days. Plus a 20 page questionaire they had to answer as well. Not to mention the nuances of the patents and their confusing language.

Goodbye mobile competitiveness and fairness. Crapple will stiffle competition and hurt the consumer. But wait there is a thing called a Monopoly which is next by the DOJ.. Crapple better watch out

....or perhaps you might want to consider that they decided quickly because it was really that clear cut. They didn't award for all of the devices but did for the ones that count. It is also hard to ignore a 132 page Samsung document that advocated copying iPhone features. I don't own ether an iPhone or an Android phone in part because I don't like either OS and have seen them as being leader and derivative/knock-off. It is one of the reasons I chose a Windows Phone which even Apple points to as being a different approach to smartphones (and for which Microsoft worked out a deal with Apple in advance regarding some patents). Of course, in the end, Samsung is just a proxy for Google. Get enough awards in its favor and Apple might succeed in creating a wedge between hardware manufacturers and Google.

Needless to say they will appeal and hopefully find a better judge. I mean like the stream says, they had three days to go through all that? I think its more like they just went with Apple. As a consumer there will NEVER be an Apple product in my home anyway. But Im just a single person. Well if you count the wife and 6 kids there is 8 lol.

What a shock, you mean to tell me a jury selected from blocks away from Apple's headquarters actually sided with Apple. I never would have guessed that. This will be appealed and once it gets to the supreme court (the appeals court is also in apples neighborhood) we may actually get some people who actually bother looking at the patents and judging fairly.

Thats what I was thinking when I first read this. Bring this fight to D.C. I know where I live people would support Harley Davidson and Hershey chocolate over anyone. But appeals will happen, so there is some hope at least.

...and where exactly is Google's headquarters? Samsung, after all, is just a proxy for Google. BTW, do you really think a conservative Supreme Court will rule in Samsung's/Google's favor? I seriously doubt that the current court would even agree to hear the case.

Too bad none of us were part of the jury, otherwise we would've sided more with samsung. I hate apple so much!

This is what happens when our broken patent system meets technologically ignorant judges and retarded California juries. Apple got away with murder by convincing idiots that they invented the rectangle with rounded corners and touchscreens. No longer able to compete on merits or innovate anything - everything in the past two years has been copied from Android and WebOS - they've chosen to sue their betters. While the iFanboys will be happy, this means that their garbage will have even fewer and slower improvements since Apple has been rewarded for their sloth. It's called a Pyrrhic victory, suckers.

Exactly. Crapple stopped innovating years ago. They are just a OS company these days. I hear the iphoney 5 will have a mere 4 inches of screen. So any phone that is out that has a 4 inch screen should sue to stop Crapple with a measly 4 inch screen.

Crapple will most likely get a letter from the DOJ about its monopolistic tendencies, or will they buy them like they are buying everyone else around the world? $600 BILLION in cash gets you everything. Crapple is headed for a major downfall. Wait till Motorola, Kodak, etc get a hold of Crapple in court.

Actually, as someone who will never buy an Apple product, I would say that it looks like the patent system is not broken. Maybe it is not just the Apple fanboys who need to try opening their minds. The case was decided quickly because it really was pretty straightforward in the end. The awarded on a number of counts and not on others. Samsung's case was lost when the court ruled their internal documents were fair discovery and admissible.

Jury says Samsung owes Apple over $1billion... NO damages awarded to Samsung, instead, Jury says Samsung violated anti trust act....

Just wow.

Patents should be throw out. Seriously. If i made a new word can i get a patent on it so no one else can speak it? No. Apple seriously either paid these jury members off or the judge is in apple's pockets. Apple may not have won on every thing they thought they would but they did however make samsung look to be a bunch of thieves on alot of devices. This is a sad day for the tech world.

...or maybe you might want to consider that Apple actually won the case on its merits. I know it is hard for some people to believe, but they held the patents, Samsung did not license them, and they knowingly used them. That is a victory for anyone who holds a legitimate patent unless you think people should be able to appropriate someone else's intellectual property. I own no Apple devices and loathe the company but they really did win the case. BTW, from a different perspective, it is a happy day in the tech world since the companies operating outside of the box (Microsoft and RIM) plus the various makers of Windows Phones indirectly benefit from the ruling. A field of four OSs is far more choice than two.

The issue, here, is not whether or not Apple held the patents. That's not in debate. What is in debate is the legitimacy of those patents. Especially considering many of the things Apple has a patent for, they didn't actually invent. And I know someone on here made a statement in a previous comment along the lines of "the first person didn't get a patent and Apple did. That's their fault."

Actually, that statement shows a lack of understanding in how patents work. Just because the inventor of a product didn't get a patent on it, doesn't mean that someone else can. In patent law, there is a thing called "Prior Art" which says that if you can prove that the patented technology already existed prior to the issuance of the patent, then that patent is invalid.

There is also patent law around things that are "obvious in the industry". The shape of a cell phone in terms of being "square with rounded corners" would fall into this category. Just like a car having 4 wheels would, or a toaster having a chime.

The problem is that, technically, you can't patent a concept. If you could, you could patent something and create a monopoly (which is still illegal, guys). The big question here with software patents is "how do you enforce them?" If you're talking about someone actually copying the code itself, that falls under copyright law, not patent law.

And this whole "trade dress" issue seems silly. So, because Apple made a phone with a single button on it, no other manufacturer can *ever* do that, even if the phone doesn't look exactly the same? That's absurd. How many phones have come out over the years with the Green/Red talk/hangup buttons. I don't recall any "trade dress" patent infringement law suits over that.

Now, if Samsung had physically copied Apples "code" and used it on their devices or made their phones look *exactly* like an iPhone, this would be a very different discussion. Be we're not talking about stealing code or some other copyrighted material. We're talking about implementing "similar" design elements. Many of which, existed before the iPhone. We're talking about one company acknowledging what is popular in the market and deciding to take the time to code and implement something similar. A patent covers a specific item, with specific functionality. You couldn't, for example, get a patent on "a car with wheels" so why are we letting Apple get patents on things like "using a gradient"?

This whole thing is ridiculous and Apple is simply being a petulant child.

OK when the dust settles, what will this mean for the average Android user? Will the cards start falling for all cell phone makers it Moto, LG etc? Will the average user get functions removed from their devices, inquiring minds want to know.

I shed no tears for Samsung. First off, they put out crap hardware and touchwiz is an abortion. Second, they could have licensed the tech from Apple, but instead decided to just steal it.

apple was asking for $30 per smartphone, thats outrageous for something as simple as bounce-back.

lets say samsung sold 100 million smartphones total, which they probably sold more, do you realize how ridiculously expensive that is?

do the math, thats $3,000,000,000 right there. plus $40 per tablet and future devices.

$1,095,xxx,xxx does not sound quite as bad once you realize that.

Or Samsung could, you know, not use bounce-back.

Several people have mentioned that as far as UI elements go, Samsung could easily make some quick changes and get around whatever patent they're found infringing on. If that's the case, they could have differentiated themselves from the beginning rather than risking it, hoping that Apple won't notice and take action.

I think the decision came down to the fact that Samsung deliberately "borrowed" concepts from Apple. To followers of the case, it became people who look at it from a legal perspective vs. people who think it's okay to borrow elements from competitors for whatever reason (ex. everyone does it, it helps the consumer, etc).

Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable. As this post says, the decision will be appealed. The case is too big for Samsung not to appeal their loss. I sincerely hope that Samsung wins on appeal and Apple gets hit with a nice big penalty.

You are going to be disappointed then. If you had followed the case at all, you would have seen the blatant, willful copying from Samsung

But Apple can do no wrong? And the jury decided all of this in less than 3 days? From what I did see, this decision was far too one-sided. BTW, you know that a South Korean court declared that Samsung did not copy Apple and that both companies infringed each other, right?

True enough also guess what record breaking sales sgs3 ....not on list awesome phone galaxy note not on list wont be able to slow samsung down....hey keep it moving

Why are people so upset by this ruling? Samsung will appeal and file stay motions on all the judgments. The case will get caught up in legal wrangling for many years before anything is conclusive; and by then, nobody will care anymore.

Samsung will appeal. The final amount will be reduced and licensing will happen. Most of these phones are off the market now anyway so the impact on end users will be minimal.

I wonder how many of the jurors have iphones in their pockets? What really ticks me off about this is not only should these patents have never been issued but apple didn't even invent this stuff, they just filed patents on it. Icons, apps, universal search, all on other platforms before the iphone even existed. Especially funny since iOS 5 was the Android parity release...voice commands, notification shades, etc. Whose really copying who here?

My girlfriend has an iPhone, I have a nexus s 4g, she couldn't tell the difference between the two if her life depended on it. I really don't understand what Samsung did wrong. And I'll ask again, why hasn't Google sued apple for the notification thing??

"she couldn't tell the difference between the two if her life depended on it"

Really? I mean, not to be mean or rude, but how old is your girl friend, and does she maybe need glasses? This statement just seams crazy.

1) The phones physically look different
2) The OS looks much different.

Please explain to us how she couldn't tell the difference between the two if she were holding one in each hand. Does she have "special needs"? I mean, it's just *not* that hard. I'm sorry if this seems rude, but I'm just flabbergasted at this statement.

As for the notification thing, Google filed a patent in 2009 and, as far as I know, they are still waiting on the patent office to respond.

I had a palm pre trio back in the day. That thing had a lot of functions that the first generation iPhone had. Just saying. The touch screen was epic.

I wonder what Google thinks of this verdict? Wonder if the fact that it was pretty obvious that Samsung was going to lose this battle caused them to use Motorola's patents against Apple. Then again, the way these court hearings are going were more likely to see the courts say that motorola's patents are exhausted too. This is only the beginning boys, only the beginning.

I want to put android (jelly bean) on an iphone 4s and send it to Tim a gift with the inscription "suck it".

iPhone 2G and 3G and iPod Touch 1st Gen had bootloader hacked and Android actully appered for them, it was Ecler and Froyo as i remeber

I should go patent my bed because it's a rectangle with round corners. Maybe i can sue the mattress companies afterwards

That's just some money changing pockets. The sum will be much smaller after the appeal. Not a big deal for a company the size of Samsung.

The important thing is that these last few months Samsung has been killing Apple in the free market. The more they diverge from the iPhone knock-offs, the more they will continue to sell.

If the trial was held at a Federal court in Florida, what would have been the outcome?

how many Galaxy S3 smartphones does Samsung have to make in order to pay for the ONE BILLON DOLLAR fine?

how will this affect the look/feel of Samsung Android smartphones in the next year or two?

Why is Google still hiding behind Samsung?

if Steve Jobs were alive today, what would he say today?

can Samsung appeal this all the way to the SCOTUS?(assuming they agree to hear the case)

if Samsung loses all appeals and must pay the ONE BILLION DOLLARS, does Apple want that in cash or gold or apples?

do Samsung's lawyers still get paid after losing this trial?


does Google, Inc. even care that Samsung lost today?

1. Nobody would ever know the outcome. Were to ignorant down here to convict someone of murder, what makes you think we can figure out complicated stuff like patents?
2. Probably between 3 and 4 million
3. Hopefully will force some changes in touchwhiz. I'd like to see all carriers go stock launcher. This way if Apple comes after anyone it would have to be Google.
4. They started to file lawsuits using motorola patents. We'll see where that goes though.
5. He probably wouldn't be saying anything. He'd be too busy working on the next product he can steal from somewhere else.
6. Yes
7. The final dollar amount will probably be much lower and will probably come in the form of memory chips.
8. Yup
9. A lot, usually 15-20%
10. Sure they do. They know this is only the beginning.

The extent that Samsung can get from their appeal will be to reduce the damages. The superior courts are loathe to overturn a jury's decision without well established cause, and Apple *smoked* them at trial.

Pathetic. Our court system is a fucking joke. The funny thing about this bull shit is Samsung supplies most of the top quality parts for the I-Phone. Something has to be done by Google, take control over this horse shit and get involved. The Judge and obviously the shit heads on the jury think because of the popularity of the I-Phone that everyone copies them and not the other way around. Wake the fuck up, I gave away my I-Phone and will never use or own another Apple product again. Google needs to take charge and stick it to Apple, end of story.

I hate to admit I finally let an iPhone into my house. My wife had been begging for one for a while and she eventually just wore me down. I got tired of having to answer "how do I do this" with her android. Now when she asks me a question about her iPhone I usually just say "I dunno, go ask one of your friends."

lol. I'm the same way with my fiance. She was *determined* to get an iPhone because Android was too "complicated". Now every time she's like "I don't know how to do this" I'm probably a little more amused than I ought to be when I say "well... neither do I." :)

I like both iOS and Android and most of this was a ruling against TouchWiz not against Android. There were a couple of rulings against Android OS direct but I know that bounce back has already been removed, not sure about that tap to deal though.

I have 2 iPod Touch's and 2 Apple TV's, used to have an iPad 3. I also have 2 Google TV's, Nexus 7 and a Motorola Photon.

I agree with pretty much all of the judgements, although I reserve the right to change my mind because I'm not a patent lawyer. I see this as more of a judgement against Samsung rather than Google, so this thermonuclear war against Android has not really started, against Samsung, yeah I can see it, but against Android, not yet.

PS: I'm a huge fan of widgets. I had the iPod touch before I bought any cell phone and widgets and what they could do swayed me to get an Android phone.

Id like to know the percentage of jurors who carry iphones vs android. I would think that could lead to a biased decision as well as the likely chance most of them wouldnt know enough about androids to even know what theyre deciding on.

If samsung HAS to pay over 1billion dollars to apple then samsung should just double or triple their prices on the parts that they sell to apple for the iphone to get their money back

This only applies here in the states. Apple is going to get greedy and try the Europe Trade Commission. Apple has a bad name in Europe already. Many people here in the US now will not buy an Apple phone because of this. Now it's Google turn to end all this bullshit. But then again they money from Apple also.

Htc is in financial crisis and now this. Sorta glad i have a moto now. Also considering getting rid of my osx86 lion install.

"Appeals will happen. The patent debate will continue."

Sure... and Apple will use this to go after every manufacturer selling Android devices in the US... just as successfully as they did against Samsung. I doubt the ruling will be overturned in an appeal. google better get to changing Android to avoid all of Apple's software patents - let's see how innovative they can get.

Otherwise I'll have to stick with my current Android phone until I croak.

Crapple must have bought off the jury. My first smartphone was the original iPhone. Then I moved to the iPhone 3G for 2 years before moving to Android. I now own a Unlocked GSM Galaxy Nexus and it is NOTHING like the iPhone and a thousand times better! I would not go back if someone gave me the first iPhone 5 produced. I would sell it and by all the Android accessories I could for my Gnex!

This kind of reaction from a "former" iphone user that defected to android is the excact reason apple wants to crush them in a whole. Oem by oem. They sue what they fear. Why do you think they havent gone after webos, windows phone or blackberry. Simple, they are no threat. Ill be damed if my only choice in the future will be a holier than god iphone/apple product.

". But this is far from over. Appeals will happen. The patent debate will continue."

....and the lawyers will continue to make gobs of money!

All Samsung has to do is look at Apple and say "Here's your 1 billion dollars. Good luck finding suppliers for your Flash memory, screens, etc. Have fun!"

Fuck Apple. I should patent the circle, as the home button on an iPhone is circular. Then I can sue them for billions of dollars over bullshit as well!

I'm sure apple can find other suppliers for their parts and chips but it will not be as good as what Samsung provides them. Creating a less reliable phone that blows up in peoples pockets like their ipods did.

The verdict was a major downer and I feel nothing but contempt for crapple because they've demonstrated (once again) that they'd rather litigate than innovate. The bright side is that Sammy will be able to present a better argument in the appeal.

So what to do in the meantime?

My 2-yr contract with Sprint finally rolled over, so we (my family) can finally upgrade. I was going to wait until Crapple released the iphone5, just to see what Sammy, LG, et al would release later, but I've changed my mind. I'm gonna go to Sprint's site and promptly order 4 new Galaxy S3s. I'm supporting Android with my wallet and you should, too.

Google, it's time to take off the gloves.

Litigate than Innovate? Seriously??? Apple is the LEADER when it comes to innovation and everybody else just tries to catch up!!!

Samsung got what it deserved!!!

Litigate than Innovate? Seriously??? Apple is the LEADER when it comes to innovation and everybody else just tries to catch up!!!

Samsung got what it deserved!!!

i do not agree ... this is a loss to all of us... apple exploit worker in asiato make huge profits and then try to control the market for things that are none of their business ...

apple are on the way out and for all our sakes i hope it happens fast

You must be high right now. Samsung deserved to get slammed, the galaxy 1 is an utter ripoff of the iPhone. (and the GS2 is pretty borderline) I honestly don't know how anyone on planet earth can't see that. The other Android manufacturers don't copy Apple, why did Samsung have to?

Where I wish Apple wouldn't have won is with regard to some of the patent infringement stuff. They (like everyone else) have some ridiculous patents that shouldn't be allowed. But that's not Apple's fault so much as it is the state of our patent system.

Apple's spokesperson Katie Cotton:

We are grateful to the jury for their service and for investing the time to listen to our story and we were thrilled to be able to finally tell it. The mountain of evidence presented during the trail showed that Samsung’s copying went far deeper than even we knew. The lawsuits between Apple and Samsung were about much more than patents or money. They were about values. At Apple, we value originality and innovation and pour our lives into making the best products on earth. We make these products to delight our customers, not for our competitors to flagrantly copy. We applaud the court for finding Samsung’s behavior willful and for sending a loud and clear message that stealing isn’t right.

Samsung issued this statement:


In truth, its the consumers that are going to get fucked over by this verdict. Apple basically now has a legal monopoly on their stupid patents. Patents that are for such mundane things such as local search, swipe to unlock, and rounded corners on a phone. I guess if Apple had its way, we would all go back to the old motorola flip phone or buy an iPhone.

If you guys paid attention I'm pretty sure one day during the trial Apple said "Android is designed to lead companies to imitate the iPhone'" Then Apple showed a document that showed how every aspect of the Android OS from its basic libraries to the OS Level infringes Apple's Patents. Me being an ex-iOS developer and now an Android OS developer, both Companies use the same base UNIX/LINUX Libraries/Kernels to build their respective OS's. I thought Linux/UNIX was A FREE AND OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE, I didn't know that Apple could patent such a Free and Open Source Software. Read this and see how Bogus some of Apple's Patents they think they have are.

.... But issued patents have nothing to do open source software. Those patents are about design concepts, they don't point out what libery or system you need to use, this software is not even side of conflict here nor being in the middle. The concepts are being used on software made on top of those, writen by Apple, Samsung and Google. Also i don't believe Apple would issue patents on basic liberies, since they also using them... they not suicidal

Also iOS and Android use diffrent kernel (one kernel not kernels :p), iOS use Apple's fork of BSD called Darwin, it's not the same as Linux but it's unix-like, designed to create Unix like envriament, following Unix principles and standards. So no body using Unix here, just envriament that that looks like it

This is a SAD SAD day for Android, and a sad day for consumer choice. Basically, a jury in Apple's home-town, just 10 miles away from Apple's corporate headquarters, in a city where Steve Jobs is seen as the 2nd coming of Christ, has found in favor of Apple (surprise!) and ordered Samsung to pay $1.05 Billion because they supposedly copied the "look and feel" of an iPhone.

Most informed observers knew how this would turn out from the very beginning. Especially, after the judge disallowed most of Samsung's evidence of prior art.

I cannot stress how bad this is for consumers. This means all of Apple's silly, stupid patents are basically upheld (swipe to unlock, local search, look and feel, and much more). We consumers will continue to see features taken for granted pulled from our phones. Apple has won a major battle today against Android, and this may just be the beginning of the end for Android itself.

I hate to say it but,

I really get a chill now knowing the Android World we know is about to go away..

Today is December 21, 2012.

The End

Of Android as we know it.

what happened to consumer choice i will never ever buy any apple product cos i dont like it and i can tell Samsung and the s3 are way different to any apple iPhone

Fine, i say fuck the US, pull out, let them have their crappy iJunk and concentrate on emerging markets are places with decent patent rules.

Remember people this case only has substance in the US, its irrelevant to Europe and Asia.

It's kind of hard to pull out when you have invested over 14 billion in renovating a factory in the united states... Samsung copied, and apple abused the system. At the end of the day this shows how messed up the patent system is in the United states. Maybe this is a high enough case to shed some light on this bullshit patent system. By the way for everyone that says this will be a mjor blow to android and samsung, that's far from the truth. Samsung will pay the fine whether they like it or not and then move on and make the proper changes for future devices. Google will continue to do their own thing and expand. As for apple, they have shown that they like to ride on past success and get too big for their own good and dilute their own brand but this time they don't have Steve jobs to come back and save the day...

I like Samsung, have a S3 and if the iPhone 4/5 was free and I had to pay $200 for an S3 I wouldn't hesitate to buy the S3 as it's 10 times the phone the iPhone is! But honestly Samsung was guilty of coping on many of their phones, they tried to look exactly like the iPhone and it's disappointing. They are better company then that and their flagship phone (S3) which did NOT violate Apples patents is by far their best phone. Frankly I wish Samsung would just stop their TouchWiz BS and run stock Jelly Bean! Think of the money they could save and how fast the phones would get updates. I have yet to buy a Samsung phone that I didn't run a aftermarket launcher cause frankly I don't want my phone to look anything like the iPhone.

My only concern in all of this is the pinch to zoom patent. It should have be invalidated! There is clearly prior art for pinch to zoom and I think the jury got hung up on that Samsung was so guilty of copying the trade dress and working out the violations and fines that they just didn't properly evaluate the pinch to zoom. Hopefully the court of appeals or supreme court addresses this properly.

So we move forward... Android will continue to kick ass and evolve at lighting fast speeds. Apple will continue baby steps with iPhone suing everyone. Android phone prices may go up a bit but that is fine, I'll pay a little more for a premium cell phone. This more of an assault on Samsung then Android! Had Samsung been running stock Android I truly believe there would be a completely different out come.

This is really sad. Apple may have innovated with the first iPhone but further iterations are pretty much the same thing. For how many years a company can keep hold of a patent? Many of those patents are too generic and honestly we the consumers are the ones to be impacted by this. To me Apple doesn't gives a damn about my preferences, they (of course) want to force me their overpriced products. Well, this is not happening any time soon. The only way we can really make see Apple their bully ways is by hitting them where it hurts, and this is the wallet. I do not have many Apple products but going forward I'm getting NONE. I always get my music from Amazon, and I will convince my wife to do the same. Thank good I convinced my wife to get an Android phone instead of an overpriced iPhone. I'm selling the iPod Touch right away (anyway is barely used now anyway) >_<

Everyone seems to be in a panic because Samsung's mobile phone department is getting sued by Apple. Samsung also manufactures a lot of other hardware from TV's to chipsets. It's a little overkill to say that this case is the death of Android.

Does it suck that Apple won? Yes. Was Samsung guilty in some of the areas? Yes. Was Apple also guilty? I believe so, but I'm no legal pro and really wasn't following this case. I don't think it's right that Apple got off the hook completely (at this point)

I'm more concerned that this is really hurting us as consumers. It's killing innovation (and yes the patent system is largely to blame here. And, really not only is it killing innovation, its this sort of case that drives up costs for us consumers as well.

Frankly, yes Samsung made some bad errors here. If you take a look at the information presented, it's not hard to see that. And yes it's kind of silly that Apple can patent a shape.

But let's not forget something here. Like it or not, both companies exist to make money. To build profit. Samsung chose one way to do that, and now Apple is trying to protect their own profit -- by hitting Samsung in the wallet, and hindering product development.

Now that the first round is over, I'm curious to see how this will affect us as consumers (assuming things stay as they are, no appeals go through, etc). I'm curious to see how Samsung goes forward, how other manufacturers move forward, and also how Apple moves forward.

Will the Android OS have to change? or is it more-so the Touchwiz OS and the Galaxy/GalaxyII-type form factor that is the issue? (Let's face it, my Galaxy Nexus is also a rectangle with rounded corners, but not nearly "iPhone-like" as the Galaxy S was.

OK, is it really a surprise that an American court sided with an American company? Is it really a surprise that Samsung got caught copying Apple? The e-mails are pretty damning. Frankly, since World War II, the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese have historically copied the best attributes of an American product and produced a cheaper alternative. It's disappointing that Samsung felt the need to design it's product after a successful Apple product. It's even more disappointing that Apple now has the perceived mandate from the American courts that all of Android is a flagrant copycat of Apple. Think about this though...If Samsung copied an Apple I-phone, apparently they make a better copy than Apple makes of the original according to the latest sales numbers. Despite all the dark news now, I believe that Android and it's partners will stop "designing around" Apple and come up with something far more unique and innovative.

Well, disappointing for Samsung and Android I suppose.. So it's a good thing they made a shed load of money over the the last few years. But, more importantly how will this shape the future for Android? Short term and long term?


Things we might learn from this:
1) It's probably a bad idea to make your icons look almost exactly like a rival company's. While the breadth of the "copying" argument seems pure sophistry, that part is hard to either explain or discount.
2) The patent system is thoroughly, deeply, and possibly irreparably messed up. We need a coalition of companies that will hold to a higher standard (at least among themselves) to show what could be done.
3) Sometimes sheer idiocy triumphs. Putting icons in a grid shouldn't be patentable, but seriously, there are other ways to accomplish the same thing visually. Now's the time to come up with something really innovative and have Apple copy it :) In the meantime, someone should dig out a copy of windows 2 or 3 to show prior art for icons in a grid in a fully functional (well maybe just functional) product.

Now it's up to Samsung's lawyers to at least whittle down the $1.05 billion. You should (assuming, I know, with decent lawyers) be able to make a case that Apple can't possibly have lost that much money to the idiot fringe that can't tell the difference between a Samsung and Apple product.

I worked at Best Buy for a little while last spring. You won't believe the number of people who say to an associate that they want to buy the iPad while pointing to a Tab, Transformer, or my favorite, a Kindle Fire ("the little iPad for $200"). What's even worse is that all the Apple products are already lumped together in their own section.

Tech-illiterate people still outnumber enlightened ones, at least the ones that frequent brick & mortar stores.

The real question I have there is "do they really think that's an iPad, or are they just calling *everything* an iPad?" Lots of people (at least here in the South) do the same thing with soft drinks: everything is a "coke".

"I'll have a coke."
"Ok. What kind?"
"Dr Pepper, please"

Yeah. You hear this conversation in line at fast food joints more often than you'd think, at least in the southern states. It's even more ironic, once you realize the Dr Pepper is made by Pepsi ;)

Sadly, I fear you're right about the tech-illiterate, but I still don't think that should be a legitimate argument that no other company can ever make anything in the shape of a square, just because it might be confused with an Apple product.

I'm going to goto an apple store and shit down the iphone isle. Going to blame it on really bad cabbage I had for lunch.

Me again.. Apparently, Samy made an operating profit of $5.9 billion in the 2nd quarter of 2012. Nice one. Should help pay the bills. I've contributed to that and I'm very pleased with my purchase thank you. Love the hardware and love the software. What's all the fuss about..? ;-)


It's not the money or the product. It's the principle. That hardware and software you speak of, if upheld after appeal,s will have to change. Sure, manufacturers will have to innovate and I'm sure they will but for all intents and purposes, the change might or might not be for the better. But as of now if apple is granted the injunction, samsung products will have to be taken off the shelves eating into that 5.9 billion operating profit. It's a lose/lose situation for consumers and samsung. This is what's the fuss is all about.

Still, I want to prod Tim Cooks ass with a chainsaw and make him like it.

And remember way back when ...when Apple was the little guy fighting against "big brother"? And that whole " think different" crap? They have become the borg of electronics. I don't care if my phone,pc or music player is trendy. I want it to work. Plain and simple.

On a lighter note.. a pox on the house of apple.

My friend.. Gator352

Yeah, I appreciate the finer points of all this and I do understand what this could mean in the grand scheme of things..
Non the less I'm not gonna get emotionally involved in the whole Samy/Apple/Android patent debacle.. It's just little old me and all my devices. Be it Android, ios or whatever.. Love em all..
Just a shame they coudn't have resolved this over a couple of drinks and a handshake.


So Apple sues for this kind of crap....yet clearly copies Android's pull down notifications, OTA updates, wireless syncing, google talk, is wrong with this picture?

I guess most people here don't care about this news.

I had expected to see at least a coupe thousand replies, but there are only 200 so far.

I'm not sure if I understand how crApple can copy the hell out of competitors and improve on their ideas, but claim it their own and patent? I'm not even talking about patenting a "rectangle with round corners". Doubt that it will happen, but if Android goes down, I'll rather go back to a flip phone than but any shit that crApple or winBlows puts out.

Come September, millions of fools and sheep will be parted with their money for the "innovative" iphone 4SG...

I'm not sure if I understand how crApple can copy the hell out of competitors and improve on their ideas, but claim it their own and patent? I'm not even talking about patenting a "rectangle with round corners". Doubt that it will happen, but if Android goes down, I'll rather go back to a flip phone than but any shit that crApple or winBlows puts out.

Come September, millions of fools and sheep will be parted with their money for the "innovative" iphone 4SG...